what should we do to cartoon network?

**Posted:** Fri Apr 19, 2002 1:30 am

I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept that. I can say this much, if they were charging closer to the production cost, I'd already own my set of the OVA. Because it costs close to $100, if I could pirate it with high quality, I would definitely pirate it and never think about their DVD set again (well, use that as an example rather than true feelings, because there are extras with the DVDs). Honestly, the cost drives me away from a purchase. I would need it proved to me that because of piracy, anime costs 5 times its actual value. Now, the arguement with limited audience, I can buy into. Seriously, there is obviously enough of an audience that there is piracy on the product, so even that is questionable. The whole statement is mumbo jumbo when you put it like that. I would need to see some numbers from those friends to believe that audience size and piracy make a DVD box set of anime around $120. A large factor of that is piracy... I have a hard time believing that. I honestly do. This reminds me of the financial statements MLB sent in to congress... yeah, their finances were in the red. Uh huh. Largest turn out in baseball history overall and their finances are in the red. I maybe alone in this, but media sharing over the internet increases the amount of products I purchase. If not for media sharing, I probably wouldn't buy music. I probably wouldn't find the names of songs that I like if not for media sharing. I wouldn't find out what group sings a particular song if not for media sharing. Because of media sharing, I can quickly see who and what I like and have their product an hour later. Not everyone is like this, I know. But I'm willing to bet the number of pirates out there that don't purchase are a very slim few. I've been in the underworld of the internet, and the majority of software pirates go out and make a purchase on software they like. Most of them support the companies they like. A good program is worth a good purchase. If your friends can make these statements about their companies, then I can make mine. It doesn't change anything, because the end result is marketing decisions. Really, they've adjusted to their demand. The consumer is willing to pay that much. They're maximizing profits, not making up for losses. I can't blame them. Now, the only losses I can see is that the consumer doesn't make a bad buy as often. The market is failing to sell crap to the consumer. They can no longer get by with bad products like they used to. Back so long ago, it was a crime to say something bad about somebody's product. They would sue you for damages if you couldn't escape libel charges. Today, it's all about what's the best. What product do you like? Is it worth a buy? Will you be able to use it? My friends from the underworld do this: They download pirated software and try it out. They find out if it will run on their system (software is very hard to return once you buy it and try it, simply because most places don't want the return policy abused as a sampling system). Then they find out if they actually like the program. Is it fun? How long until it gets old? Is the game actually a cheap POS that becomes annoying after a while? How many bugs are in it? Will the bugs make the game bad for them? If they like the software, guess what? Actually, two things happen: 1)they go out and buy their official copy of the game and register it 2)the producer has made a new fan. These geeks like to back good development houses. They beta test. They send in bug reports. They like the producer, so they're willing to give them their business. Do you know what happens to a developer like Electronic Arts and Acclaim? People make a bad buy, don't like the game, and essentially start to hate the company. Who likes being stuck with bad software? You're out of $40+. Reviews can't tell you if a program will work or not. Different system set ups are funny. Honestly, I think the producers are mad because they can't hack it in a smarter consumer base. They don't like that they can't pad their finances with crappy product sales. Is this or isn't this the truth of today? (Sorry if I rambled and/or went off topic in this...) Also, this what I tend to hear out there: If you like the program, go buy it. Pirating gives you something that shareware and demos don't. I don't recommend pirating because many applications come with a decent shareware version for trial, but because of the value of the dollar these days, I will not blame a single person who wants to try out a program's full use to see if it's going to suit them well after the purchase. Most developers have realized this, too, which is why you see a lot more time trial shareware versions that give you full use. Of course, it can be argued that full version shareware gets hacked and cracked and a lot of people get games for free and never purchase. If this is so true, then why is it everyone I meet says the same thing? "If you like it, you should buy it!" Support the company. <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin BuuEdited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/udonomite.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Donomite</A> at: 4/19/02 12:40:00 am

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 1:44 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept that. I can say this much, if they were charging closer to the production cost, I'd already own my set of the OVA. Because it costs close to $100, if I could pirate it with high quality, I would definitely pirate it and never think about their DVD set again (well, use that as an example rather than true feelings, because there are extras with the DVDs).<hr></blockquote> $100 is not expensive. We actually get the cheapest Anime prices in the entire world (at least for DVDs). I don't think you really understand the costs involved. Yes the media itself is cheaper. But you have to pay acquisition costs, translation costs (Which is expensive), then you have to pay for equipment rental/the equipment itself required for dubbing (The equipment can cost an upward of $500k), then you have to pay the voice actors (that can cost different amounts and they do a lot of takes and it takes almost a week-per-episode which drives up costs a lot more), then you have to pay the techies to add subtitles, do the menus, etc. Then you pay liscensing fees for using DVD technology, replication costs, and packaging. That still makes it a good deal. I know people who work at three of the largest Anime companies (One of whom I am good friends with and she doesn't lie, they actually don't make that huge a profit off of it). The boxed set is around $90. Lets do the math. The series is thirteen episodes. Boxed sets tend to be cheaper, and the Tenchi Ultimate is no exception lets see how much you make. On smaller OAV series, companies put 3 DVDs per disc. So a thirteen episode series would be on 3-4 discs. Each Disc SRPs for about $30. So 30*4=$120 or if they used a three-disc set instead 30*3=$90, which again is the average price. Ok but your ALSO getting a third DVD filled with information, which someone had to compile, someone had to do the work to make it all work on a DVD in a intuitive computer-UI way. So your getting an excellent deal. Your point just seems to show you care little for supporting companies who are offering you a service and without ripping you off. Go see how much Anime DVD prices are in other countries. You will see your getting an excellent deal compared to most countries. You will also see that companies in the US are very competitive and under-charge despite having the same costs as the other DVD companies in other countries. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I maybe alone in this, but media sharing over the internet increases the amount of products I purchase.<hr></blockquote> But wait you just said that "Because it costs close to $100, if I could pirate it with high quality, I would definitely pirate it and never think about their DVD set again" Hypocrisy perhaps? You just said you would pirate it without a second thought. You just made your own point moot. You also fail to understand that Anime companies aren't selling to the "so-called" consumer market. Consumer market is *NOT* a niche market. The 'Consumer Market' according to any financial expert is the exact opposite of a niche market. It is the general marketplace. Anime sales in the US are to a NICHE market. Not the "Consumer market". Cars, Electronics, etc are part of the consumer market. Not Anime. I don't mean to be rude, but you really DO need to know what your talking about. I wont say that I am an expert on this stuff by any means. But I think I know a bit more than you do about this. Since I not only know honest people in the industry, as well as knowing some of the costs that go into the "production cost", which is actually quite expensive. The value of DVDs does not come in with the cost of production, which is actually vastly more expensive than VHS, it comes with the price of replication which is cheap. <div align="center">Ten years ago, something happened. Something small. Something most people didn't notice. But it did touch a few of us. Then a few more. And a few more. And soon that something was spreading in all directions at once. One ripple followed another, at a faster and faster pace, each new wave gaining more distance than the last. And the ripples keep coming. -From "So Far: The First Ten Years of a Vision" <a href="http://www.xenu.net/" target="_top"><img border="0" alt="Operation Clambake" height="61" width="433" src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/oc20.jpg"> </a> <embed src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/diduknow.swf" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" menu="false" width="320" height="49" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"> <a href="http://www.xenu.net/">Visit Xenu.net!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:30 am

Nuh uh, that's not what you said the first time. <blockquote type=cite><blockquote>Quote:<hr>"I know people who work in Pioneer USA, Bandai, and Central Park Media and they all claim a large factor in the price of Anime besides cost to produce is piracy."<hr></blockquote></blockquote> You've totally contradicted yourself, now. Now the price is completely reasonable and is based upon dubbing and editing costs along with the cost of DVDs. You mislead me a little, actually. I do think you might know a bit more than me as far as anime and anime markets go, but the arguement was that due to piracy, the DVD sets cost more. Now you're saying they are not expensive and that it's actually a good deal, and that the retail price is close to the production cost. As for my point being moot, it's not really moot when you look at the note I included. I contradict myself but I did ask to use it as an example. Since it's not easily available at high quality, how does pirating effect the cost? Of course, according to you, the cost is not really effected by piracy, as your friends have said, but more reflects staff costs on making the shows viewable to the public here. You seemed to add it all up to the actual cost. For pirating to have any role in this, I say there has to be a reasonable audience for that to exist. Who pirates something small to a "NICHE" market? I find a lot of small market products that aren't pirated. Which way is it? Obviously (according to your last reply), pirating is not the problem with costs. And that was my original dispute with you, and I think that point is proven. Pirating has not hurt the cost, as you had stated above. There's no longer an arguement to be had. I still say that only people with a hundred dollars to burn should go get the box set. Otherwise, the rest of us are kind of a in a tight spot unless we like wasting money on cartoons. That's not to say it's wasteful spending, but some of us have to make ends meet. I think you're stretching a bit. Your arguements have changed somewhat. Your first statement says that pirating is a large factor in costs. Now you say that it's a great deal for the box sets and that the costs show little profit margin. Which is it? I yield the cost of anime in other countries arguements and the productions costs. I don't know a thing about this industry, but I do not believe piracy is the factor in costs. At least you said, "besides cost to produce". ** After reviewing the whole arguement, I'm going to side with you because a lot of the details involved add up. I still don't agree with every point, but I don't feel the arguement has any productivity in it. Overall, your summary of costs is accurate, but I'm not budging on piracy and it's factor on costs. I do, however, agree that due to the limited size of the audience, and the availability of the content online, that they should (and possibly do) have a good deal of concern with the product. If they could mass produce it like CDs and other mainstream products and sell them (supply and demand), then the cost would be less. It looks like that could be another factor in costs. Let me know if that assumption is off track. Thanks. <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin BuuEdited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/udonomite.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Donomite</A> at: 4/21/02 4:43:39 am

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:11 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There's no longer an arguement to be had. I still say that only people with a hundred dollars to burn should go get the box set. Otherwise, the rest of us are kind of a in a tight spot unless we like wasting money on cartoons. That's not to say it's wasteful spending, but some of us have to make ends meet.<hr></blockquote> Oh BAH! Go get a job or something then. ... I'm not even old enough to get one, but I want one. I hate being 13 and living in a shitty state. But I save up my money and get my Mom to pay for some anime. You should save up your money so you can spend it on the anime. Or you could just rob an anime store. I'm sure that place...what's it called? Suncoast? The expensive one...I think that's it. Well, anyways, I'm sure Suncoast can afford to be robbed - they rip everyone off enough. <table><border=3 cellpadding=5 cellspacing=3><tr><td><center>Sunset of ThornsReaching towards the form refraining Trying to catch the grains remaining Your face swirls away to dust Loving emotions turn to lust The distant sunset in the past Always seems to turn to cracks Old memories turn into pain Forever pushed away by rain Trying to tell you the way I feel "Nothing" cannot make me heal Your head turns the other way Making me the one to pay Endless nights seem to go on Hoping this won't last for long Crying does not cease exist Pain proliferates Pain persists</td><td><center><a href="http://pub39.ezboard.com/bdabestmessageboard" target="_blank" border="0"><img src=http://www.dimensionalstars.com/rocieltub.gif></a></td></table>

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:23 pm

No I haven't at all. If I had said those are the ONLY costs that go into it then I would be contradicting myself. I was explaining to you that there are MANY costs that go into making DVDs that you overlooked. In addition to production costs you have to also bump up the price due to the limited market share. Most companies print DVDs in limited sets of 5,000. The more you order from a replication company the cheaper it is per unit, right? Well the have to order in relatively low volume because of the limited appeal of the Anime. This is in part due to piracy, they don't want the supply to exceed the demand...it's a simply concept and at this point your just being nitpicky because your argument is severely lacking. THE RETAIL PRICE IS QUITE NEAR THE PRODUCTION COST! I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept. Not everyone is trying to steal your money and rip you off. These are not multi-billion dollar corporations these companies are very small. Under 30 workers generally. <blockquote>Quote:<hr> For pirating to have any role in this, I say there has to be a reasonable audience for that to exist. Who pirates something small to a "NICHE" market? I find a lot of small market products that aren't pirated. Which way is it?<hr></blockquote> <blockquote>Quote:<hr> Obviously (according to your last reply), pirating is not the problem with costs. And that was my original dispute with you, and I think that point is proven.<hr></blockquote> You've proven nothing, and thats the funny part. Your just arguing for the sake of arguing. 1. You have NO idea what your talking about. 2. You contradicted yourself several times. 3. You nitpick my words because you lack any kind of a founded argument. You end your rant of ignorance with this gem: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> I yield the cost of anime in other countries arguements and the productions costs. I don't know a thing about this industry, but I do not believe piracy is the factor in costs.<hr></blockquote> Don't  believe? Yeah there is a big difference between BELIEVING and knowing. You see believing means you have NO evidence or knowledge that allows you to back up that assertion. Which by that makes it an invalid argument as I cannot understand it. You see I KNOW that piracy in one way or another (Generally to a slight to moderate increase in cost) feeds into the cost of Anime. Once people pirate they keep on doing it. Thats how it works. I don't know anyone who just pirates "one thing". People do the "one thing" with over-priced software like "Photoshop" not with Anime where you need the entire series...Oh, and then you want this other series so you pirate that one. I know a lot of people who DO pirate Anime and software and they stand as strong evidence against your point which incidentally LACKS a point. Again twisting my words and your nitpicking shows that you yourself know that the validity of your argument is weakened. Because at this point you are obviously just arguing because you don't want to "lose" I am going to stop because this is just getting silly. Since you obviously wont listen to me, I suggest you actually go out and learn about volume production, Anime, the US Anime market, DVDs, DeCSS, and the companies involved...heck go and pick up a book or something and then maybe you would actually have an argument...because this is just getting stupid and people who lack any kind of credibility or an argument aren't worth my time in arguments. <div align="center">Ten years ago, something happened. Something small. Something most people didn't notice. But it did touch a few of us. Then a few more. And a few more. And soon that something was spreading in all directions at once. One ripple followed another, at a faster and faster pace, each new wave gaining more distance than the last. And the ripples keep coming. -From "So Far: The First Ten Years of a Vision" <a href="http://www.xenu.net/" target="_top"><img border="0" alt="Operation Clambake" height="61" width="433" src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/oc20.jpg"> </a> <embed src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/diduknow.swf" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" menu="false" width="320" height="49" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"> <a href="http://www.xenu.net/">Visit Xenu.net!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:41 pm

<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin Buu

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:44 pm

Oh? So we're done now? That's good. By the way this isn't an AOL Chatroom and if your going to reply at least say something to augment the thread. If you want a chatroom get AOL, this is a forum and is run differently. <div align="center">Ten years ago, something happened. Something small. Something most people didn't notice. But it did touch a few of us. Then a few more. And a few more. And soon that something was spreading in all directions at once. One ripple followed another, at a faster and faster pace, each new wave gaining more distance than the last. And the ripples keep coming. -From "So Far: The First Ten Years of a Vision" <a href="http://www.xenu.net/" target="_top"><img border="0" alt="Operation Clambake" height="61" width="433" src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/oc20.jpg"> </a> <embed src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/diduknow.swf" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" menu="false" width="320" height="49" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"> <a href="http://www.xenu.net/">Visit Xenu.net!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:54 pm

My objective in the discussion was met. I don't prolong discussions past the point of being constructive. It was fun (for me at least), Yujenisis. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> Thank you for teaching me about anime and DVD production. Why would I go open a book or research this when I could just get you fired up and have you spit it out? And to that, I said: <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> You really get into these arguements, don't you? <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin Buu

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:57 pm

Bah...I hate fighting with Peter in arguements... <table><border=3 cellpadding=5 cellspacing=3><tr><td><center>Sunset of ThornsReaching towards the form refraining Trying to catch the grains remaining Your face swirls away to dust Loving emotions turn to lust The distant sunset in the past Always seems to turn to cracks Old memories turn into pain Forever pushed away by rain Trying to tell you the way I feel "Nothing" cannot make me heal Your head turns the other way Making me the one to pay Endless nights seem to go on Hoping this won't last for long Crying does not cease exist Pain proliferates Pain persists</td><td><center><a href="http://pub39.ezboard.com/bdabestmessageboard" target="_blank" border="0"><img src=http://www.dimensionalstars.com/rocieltub.gif></a></td></table>

**Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:00 pm

I do, too... but it's kind of funny sometimes. I wouldn't do this if I didn't like Yuj's arguements. <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin Buu

**Posted:** Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:41 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Why would I go open a book or research this when I could just get you fired up and have you spit it out?<hr></blockquote> Fired up? Heh. Believe me I don't get angry. And to quote a certain big green guy "You wouldn't like it when I get angry". I have a lot of patience, which probably comes from the fact I have been working with screaming bouncing children for so long. Oh, and I do appreciate the compliment about you getting information from me. I do *also* enjoy our little encounters. Don't be afraid to say I have offended you, because I am not afraid to apologize, or to admit I am wrong when I am. You like to think and write? That's good. We need more thinkers in this world. Especially creative ones. You like to write? That's fantastic we need some good writers in this world especially since all my favorite writers are A. Dead B. Writing cr@p C. Stopped writing. Heh. You should put up some of your stories, I personally would love to read them. Because I love strong plots, twists, and character development. And that seems to be some of the things that you enjoy writing. ^.^ <div align="center">Ten years ago, something happened. Something small. Something most people didn't notice. But it did touch a few of us. Then a few more. And a few more. And soon that something was spreading in all directions at once. One ripple followed another, at a faster and faster pace, each new wave gaining more distance than the last. And the ripples keep coming. -From "So Far: The First Ten Years of a Vision" <a href="http://www.xenu.net/" target="_top"><img border="0" alt="Operation Clambake" height="61" width="433" src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/oc20.jpg"> </a> <embed src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/diduknow.swf" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" menu="false" width="320" height="49" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"> <a href="http://www.xenu.net/">Visit Xenu.net!</a> </div>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/uyujenisis.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Yujenisis</A> <IMG SRC="http://www.distortedperspective.com/personal/pete.gif" BORDER=0> at: 4/22/02 1:48:25 am

**Posted:** Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:04 am

You've got class, Yujenisis. Hopefully you're not fooling me. *lol* Some of my posts weren't well thought out. That happens late at night (like right now, which is when I usually come by and post). Well, I appreciate *classyness* and... and... that's all I wanted to really say. *lol* <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin Buu

**Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2002 6:29 pm

Heh, well I guess the same could be said about you. I like how you take things the right way. In a good naturedly way. That's good. There aren't enough people like that in this world. Come to think of it, there aren't enough REAL people in this world. <div align="center">Ten years ago, something happened. Something small. Something most people didn't notice. But it did touch a few of us. Then a few more. And a few more. And soon that something was spreading in all directions at once. One ripple followed another, at a faster and faster pace, each new wave gaining more distance than the last. And the ripples keep coming. -From "So Far: The First Ten Years of a Vision" <a href="http://www.xenu.net/" target="_top"><img border="0" alt="Operation Clambake" height="61" width="433" src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/oc20.jpg"> </a> <embed src="http://www.xenu.net/archive/banners/diduknow.swf" quality="high" bgcolor="#000000" menu="false" width="320" height="49" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash"> <a href="http://www.xenu.net/">Visit Xenu.net!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Tue Apr 23, 2002 11:55 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Come to think of it, there aren't enough REAL people in this world."<hr></blockquote> I agree. <hr>"Me eat you up! Me eat you up! Me eat you up! You turn into a cookie!" - Majin Buu

**Posted:** Wed Apr 24, 2002 12:13 am

And you used the *nesses* with stars! It pisses me off when people don't. ^.^ <table><border=3 cellpadding=5 cellspacing=3><tr><td><center>Sunset of ThornsReaching towards the form refraining Trying to catch the grains remaining Your face swirls away to dust Loving emotions turn to lust The distant sunset in the past Always seems to turn to cracks Old memories turn into pain Forever pushed away by rain Trying to tell you the way I feel "Nothing" cannot make me heal Your head turns the other way Making me the one to pay Endless nights seem to go on Hoping this won't last for long Crying does not cease exist Pain proliferates Pain persists</td><td><center><a href="http://pub39.ezboard.com/bdabestmessageboard" target="_blank" border="0"><img src=http://www.dimensionalstars.com/rocieltub.gif></a></td></table>

what should we do to cartoon network?

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