Turkey-It's not Just for Thanksgiving anymore.

**Posted:** Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:29 pm

I attended an interesting lecture today by economic/political columnist Stephen Kinser on the topic of Turkey's Emerging Role. He recently wrote a novel called "Crescent and Star" which helps to detail the over 14 years he spent in Turkey, covering it's democratic movements. Been thinking a lot about the Bush decision regarding the Islamic world and Iraq in particular lately, mainly because I've been bothered by my own indecisions on the topic, and I just don't flat out agree with a lot of the protesters out there-at the same time I don't side with Bush's agenda or supporters either. I've become more convinced against U.S. plans to assault Iraq, not because of Bush's religion this or "God-bashing" that, but more because of some political "alternatives" that I've been discovering lately as I study the subject closely. Also, I've always been fascinated with countries that fall into the "political sidelines"-i.e. Spain or Greece, or even some LDCs occasionally. Spain grabbed my attention when it recently joined with the U.K. and U.S. to support a pressing Resolution in the United Nations Council...unfortunately, even after talking to my International Political Economy professor about it, neither he nor I could really discern anything prominent about the decision. I know Spain's president offered his Private "Casa" to Hussein in exchange with Saddam dropping his leadership duties in Iraq (however laughable that was, it is somewhat significant) but I could find no real good evidence on any news service to discuss this. Which irratated me somewhat; how could people overlook that? There must be a reason. Anyways, if anyone has any opinions on the Spain thing, get back to me. The point of this topic is on the latest "sideline but headline" country that has come to my attention and, essentially, multiple others: Turkey. Obviously, the Parliamentary decision to keep the U.S. from using Southeast Turkey as a staging point for it's anticipated campaign into Iraq is more significant then I think CNN is taking it-which is odd, because CNN tends to OVERPLAY things in general. Mr. Kinser today touched upon the political history of Turkey-historical prehistory, Byzantine Empire, Ottoman Empire, into the present Republic of Turkey (which in reality is LESS THEN 100 YEARS OLD). He detailed the immense democratic struggles the Turkish people have undergone, finally in the past 10-15 years convincing the political elite and military generals to allow them to have a "true democracy so long promised". Certainly the Kurds are a sensitive topic, but the point is this-the fallacy of certain political beliefs that Iraq, once "liberated", can be turned into a Democratic State to serve as an example to the rest of the Arab world. But the true democracy that CAN serve as such an example already is. Back when Turkey claimed it's independence as a nation, Attaturk (Father of the Turks, as his name means) was contacted by multiple political royal families and presidencies in the Middle Eastern region for advice on how to better democratize their own countries. Now that Turkey has overcome many of it's internal struggles, the best course of action for the U.S. would seem to come from recognition of the Turkish state and it's decision-I'm somewhat concerned that Bush might plan economic sanctions that would further set back not only Turkish economic goals, but also Turkish democratic goals and, possibly, cultural goals Turkey may have (such as the Kurds' and equal association privledges accounting to them). I thought it would be interesting and helpful to spread this idea to the users on this board, because not only is it based in alot of contemporary and to-the-times academic research, but also it doesn't focus on religion, which while Gandhi may have believed was intelligent to take into account (and I do respect him) is really not the issue much of the world is having with Iraq or Bush-it's more just the simple acceptance that other countries are out there. I am certain the Turkish people would appreciate and possibly benefit from any positive turns the U.S. could take from this. I'll wait to see what Bush decides-at the least, he won't impose any sanctions on Turkey and will accept their word. So, yeah, maybe that topic helps to get some of my political views out there-it certainly helps me figure some things out for myself. Any further opinions or questions on Turkey I might be able to answer? I didn't want to make this topic too long is why I'm cutting my post here. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark TwainEdited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/btenchimuyo79943.showUserPublicProfile?gid=alphaconqerer>AlphaConqerer</A> at: 3/6/03 5:32:01 pm

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:10 am

Ok ..I admit.. I am waaaay too drained mentally to read your entire exposition of the Bush administration. However, in light of the subject.. HURRAY!!! Turkey rocks!! Whooot!! Peace and love, man! *walks off in hippie attire to live in Turkey* Bush can go to Hell and stay there ^^ <div style="text-align:center"><img src="http://villageanime.com/Zoids/rpg/ryoko-reclining.jpg " style="border:0;height:120;width:400;"/> I am Ryoko! Tenchi Muyo Survivor 4 "I see a no smoking sign, but I don't see a no drinking sign anywhere."-Ryoko <a href="http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=ryuu-ryoko" target="top">Ryoko's Empire, Ruled by Ryoko of course!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:24 am

Wow, I feel kinda insulted. Though I'm certain you didn't intend such an emotive response...well, just read it when you're not so drained eh? And actually this topic deals little with the Bush administration-I'd hardly consider it an "exposition" in the manner you're using it (sounds almost negative ^_^;;; ). And, as usual, I'm offended by your callous manner towards Bush. wee. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:35 am

Just treating him the way he treats his American people. Exposition, the way I used it ..simply means "telling the whole truth of the matter, no coverups". I think Turkey did what they felt was good and right... regardless of their standing in the world.. or what the USA has to say about it. That is one of quite a few countries that have taken a stand against the USA and it's campaign of terror. I commend them. I say campaign of terror because simply, other nations know what will happen if they challenge the USA. World War. And that, like parents overseeing a child, the child being the USA, is something they wish to avoid. There is no reasoning with the USA at this point. There's my take on the subject, AC. Whatever way you look at it, analyze it, break it down.. it's the same conclusion. The USA needs to wake up and realize it isn't the ruler of the world. <div style="text-align:center"><img src="http://villageanime.com/Zoids/rpg/ryoko-reclining.jpg " style="border:0;height:120;width:400;"/> I am Ryoko! Tenchi Muyo Survivor 4 "I see a no smoking sign, but I don't see a no drinking sign anywhere."-Ryoko <a href="http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=ryuu-ryoko" target="top">Ryoko's Empire, Ruled by Ryoko of course!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:41 am

So basically you're supporting a nation because it gave an opposing answer to the U.S. That's good, I guess, but you seem to be looking more for an adversarial position of any kind to U.S. authority, rather then looking for a position that can benefit all. This was the point of my topic, which you still missed I guess. Ah well, I probably just needed to explain it to you in this setting. I still fervently believe the U.S. is not in belief that it is the ruler of the world, though; I think it realizes it is a hegemon, and as thus commands a great deal of responsibility, but naive as it is, I have yet to agree fully with what you say. As for the word 'exposition', I guess I misinterpreted it. When someone doesn't read your topic yet responds to it, you tend to get semi-defensive^_^;;; -so my apologies for that. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:57 am

I believe, in all due respect, that any adversarial position, which does not include mass destruction, to US authority is exactly what can benefit all. Another solution, as you say ..is only possible when both parties will agree to it. It is fairly clear that the US is not in an "agreeable" mood. This will be quite exemplified if I'm psychic and predict now that Bush-ido shall declare war on Iraq regardless of good or bad reports by UN inspectors. Turkey made their statement. I believe it is called symbolic speech. Turkey does not support this war. But then, who does? Great Britain's Parliament? Certainly not most of their people. So ..exactly how do you expect any sort of alternative to change Bush-ido's one-track mind? After World War I, USA started to take on more responsibility with Europe in shambles. Responsibility is being twisted into dictatorship. The true motives behind America are wealth, power, and the pursuit of these things. The UN should be the ones responsible for overseeing Iraq. So why does the US suddenly feel the urge to override their power? And why ..tell me.. is 9/11 even an issue as concerns Iraq. <div style="text-align:center"><img src="http://villageanime.com/Zoids/rpg/ryoko-reclining.jpg " style="border:0;height:120;width:400;"/> I am Ryoko! Tenchi Muyo Survivor 4 "I see a no smoking sign, but I don't see a no drinking sign anywhere."-Ryoko <a href="http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=ryuu-ryoko" target="top">Ryoko's Empire, Ruled by Ryoko of course!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:11 am

I think you meant World War II? I think you need to study the post-World War II period a lot closer, personally, RM. No insults intended, but I still think you're generalizing way too much. And once again, I protest adversarial expectations and subsequent commendation on your part. That's really not what the situation needs, and you're not helping it at all. Although you're not the only one I feel this about. A lot of the info I'm seeing from you is CNN-recycled. I encourage you to read whatever materials you can on the indepth processes behind all of this-otherwise you do yourself the same diservice you and many others would press upon the American public and government. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:31 am

The United States has indeed been hypocritical in a lot of it's actions. However, the UN??? France? Germany? Russia? The motives of this body and these nations are altruistic? France has long ties with Iraq. It has a multi-billion dollar oil deal with Iraq (esp. with contracts to yet untapped oil fields that could yield untold amounts of wealth for France) and has numerous other business relationships with Saddam's regime (its Iraq's number one Western trading partner). It also built the first Nuclear facility for Iraq (the one which was destroyed by Israel). Germany has had chemical/pharmaceutical deals with Iraq. It too has supplied materials to Iraq and has an economic relationship with it. Russia is owed 8 billion dollars by the Iraqi regime. Who stands the most to lose from a regime change? These three. Further, the Kuwaiti's remember the kindness of Iraq in 1991. The Kurds remember Saddam gassing them. The Iraqi exiles know how nice Saddam is. Nobody disagrees that Saddam is a bad person, but to say that the United States is only going to war for economic interests is short-sighted. Also, to claim that the UN is the authority in all international matters is naive. Nations act in their own best interests without exception. In 1995 France conducted nuclear weapons tests despite world-wide protest. Russia invaded Afganistan in 1980. Over 100+ military actions worldwide have been undertaken since the UN's conception. I commend the US. and Britain for even trying to work through the UN when most nations would simply have undertaken action on their own. ZL <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/R3K.gif"/> <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/ZLstrat.gif"/>   Empires wax and wane; states cleave asunder and coalesce.

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:32 am

I'd get alot farther in the picket lines, m'boy. Perhaps WWII is what I meant. I might be generalizing, but you are over-analyzing the simple concepts that have begun this march towards war. Of course.. in history, one can pick out various events which led to the present-day attitude of the USA. I might just study some post-WWII data in my free time in the future. In this case, I really do not feel the need. The facts remain regardless of you or me and what we feel. Whatever the "true" reasons or purposes of this impending war are.. there are always excuses. Especially for those in power. I suggest you spend more time in studying Politics, AC ..you might find it rather ..disconcerting. <div style="text-align:center"><img src="http://villageanime.com/Zoids/rpg/ryoko-reclining.jpg " style="border:0;height:120;width:400;"/> I am Ryoko! Tenchi Muyo Survivor 4 "I see a no smoking sign, but I don't see a no drinking sign anywhere."-Ryoko <a href="http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=ryuu-ryoko" target="top">Ryoko's Empire, Ruled by Ryoko of course!</a> </div>

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:50 pm

HAHA! Wow, I apparently missed out on some "fun" between Heidi and GR, how sad. Yeah, and by the Yuj reference, I meant he used to have the same pic in his sig, so...course you do remind me of him on some other fronts...but I wasn't meaning to say you were him. Just that he used to have that picture. Moving on...(I was hoping to get to this before RM responded, but ah well) Thanks for the input, ZL. I actually didn't know some of that information^_^. As for RM- (I can't help but feel whenever I see that picture of Ryoko that I'm talking to Yuj all over again in some form...weird, huh?) There is never a time when I would not consider studying politics more-I'm the first to admit that I am never completely knowledgable about a subject. However I did not wish to make this a struggle about who knows more or who should find out more-which you seem to be wishing to make it. Instead, I merely pointed out that you're rehashing a lot of editorial information from a news source which, while creditable and certainly informative, should not be the foundation of your own decisions. I always believe that academic documents are the wisest froms of opinion-if not only because they lean towards unbias (which of course is near impossible for an academic) but mainly because they are generally first-hand, educated accounts from the people in the countries you claim to be "against" a war or "against" politics or etc. I merely encourage you and likewise brought the Turkey article to your attention because I choose to represent another approach-an informed approach. And, I wrote more...but I have to go to class, so this is a SPACEHOLDER post. w00. Continuing on...I guess I don't have much more to say. But I don't think politics are simple, that's for sure. I think there are simple guidelines or pathways that a politician can take; and certainly politicians who can relate their duties or opinions to the public in a simple way can become quite popular. But I would hesitate before I say they have a SIMPLE anything-the job isn't simple, the path isn't always clear, and most of all, the judgements can be difficult to make-almost certainly so. I have a bad taste in my mouth when I feel that someone is delibrately overlooking the details only so that they can save themselves time or confusion-it's a weak decision, and I cannot condone it. Granted, I reiterate again that you believe you're doing me a "service" by suggesting I look at the face of politics simply-and I really have. The thing is, I'm not content with that, because I think there is so much more that goes on below the surface that simplistic approaches cannot begin to process. Blah. And all i wanted to do was TALK TURKEY, as ZL would say. Hey ZL, what'd you think of Spain joining in on the UN Resolution with the UK and the US? _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark TwainEdited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/btenchimuyo79943.showUserPublicProfile?gid=alphaconqerer>AlphaConqerer</A> at: 3/7/03 4:34:44 pm

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:08 pm

Ok, I'll wait until you finish all you wanted to say, and then edit this, my spaceholder post ^^.. *shifty eyes* I have my respect for Peter.. but no one calls me Yujenisis >.< .. *sweatdrop* ..I understand what you mean about my ryoko pic ^^;;; ..I just like it, that's all ^^;; V Grrr.. evil girl. V EDIT: Does it really matter? I'm obviously not Yujenisis. Edit 2: Ok. Knowing what you think of Yuje, I felt you were placing that on me due to my sig. <div style="text-align:center"><img src="http://villageanime.com/Zoids/rpg/ryoko-reclining.jpg " style="border:0;height:120;width:400;"/> I am Ryoko! Tenchi Muyo Survivor 4 "I see a no smoking sign, but I don't see a no drinking sign anywhere."-Ryoko <a href="http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=ryuu-ryoko" target="top">Ryoko's Empire, Ruled by Ryoko of course!</a> </div>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/btenchimuyo79943.showUserPublicProfile?gid=xryokomuyox>X Ryoko Muyo X</A> <IMG SRC="http://villageanime.com/zoids/rpg/ryokogem.gif" BORDER=0> at: 3/7/03 3:32:42 pm

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:13 pm

Your picture reminds me of Yuje every time I see it too. EDIT: Thanks for the compliment, RM. I was actually being truthful though. SECOND EDIT, YAY!: I didn't say you were Yuje. I was merely saying that your sig reminded me of him because he used to have the same picture in his sig. Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/btenchimuyo79943.showUserPublicProfile?gid=xxgoddessryokoxx>Xx Goddess Ryoko xX</A> at: 3/7/03 3:27:15 pm

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:36 pm

STOP THIS EDIT WAR RM AND GR!!! TALK TURKEY if you're going to talk...otherwise take it to the lower forums. ZL <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/R3K.gif"/> <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/ZLstrat.gif"/>   Empires wax and wane; states cleave asunder and coalesce.

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:38 pm

Gotcha, ZL. ^.^

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:23 pm

One very interesting thing about this whole situation is that it hinges on two different Arab countries that both view themselves as the pinnacle of Arab advancement. On one side we have Turkey a very good model of a democratic Arab nation, albeit one that has abandoned its Arab traditions in favor of becoming european. On the other side we have Iraq, a country that has striven to become the most advanced Arab nation but which has done little less than gain old American and Soviet military technology. But in truth both of these countries aren't all that advanced and often times their governments resort to tyrannical behavior, defninantly not a hallmark of their billed social progression. There, that made no sense but read it anyway..

Turkey-It's not Just for Thanksgiving anymore.

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