Turkey-It's not Just for Thanksgiving anymore.

**Posted:** Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:40 pm

I want to recant what you said about Turkey and its history with tyrannical behavior. It is true that the military in Turkey has historically had much influence and until recently has played a good hand in restricting democratic processes. However, the recent decision by Turkey clearly shows the willingness of the military to stand back and see "what the citizenry can do". I think that to dismiss the military would be wrong, and that if a conflict broke out in the Middle East that threatened Turkey, the military might very well attempt to retake control because of their own fears. But I reiterate the Turkey's military is currently in spectative appreciation of the processes at hand. I believe that, with time and effort, the true democracy that Turkey wants will be realized. As for Iraq..well you can't have what you can't have, particularly with a man like Hussein leading you. Fix that first-not easy, I know. But it's still essential. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Sat Mar 08, 2003 12:30 am

I agree that Turkey is moving well on the path to true Democracy. Generally it keeps its overzealous religious elements in check, and it is responsive to its people (also keeping the military in check). There are a few historical negatives, however, that may still play a part in events of the region. First, Turks and Kurds are not exactly on the best of terms. I don't want to see what might happen if Turkish troops cross into Northern Iraq, which they said they would do if war broke out. Secondly, (related to the first point) the Turks are not blood free with regard to ethnic cleansing (historically). In 1915, 1.5 million Christian Armenians died on a forced march directed by the Turks. It is not well remembered, but it did occur, standing as the most horrific stain on the legacy of the Young Turks, who introduced democracy to the nation, yet allowed this to occur. ZL Thus, the decision not to have American troops based in Turkey is potentially troubling not only for America, but perhaps for the Kurds as well...specifically if Turkish troops turn hostile when crossing into the Northern border of Iraq. Edit: Going back to one of AC's earlier concerns... In the long term, I don't believe that America will impose any sanctions or be hostile to Turkey for their decision not to base troops in Turkey. Afterall, long term stability in the region requires peaceful and friendly regimes in both Iraq and Turkey. <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/R3K.gif"/> <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/ZLstrat.gif"/>   Empires wax and wane; states cleave asunder and coalesce.Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub19.ezboard.com/btenchimuyo79943.showUserPublicProfile?gid=zhugeliang@tenchimuyo79943>Zhuge Liang</A> <IMG SRC="http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_greenspot.gif" BORDER=0> at: 3/7/03 11:48:48 pm

**Posted:** Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:11 pm

Ah, i appreciate ZL's opinions-well, in the long term, it would be likely that relations between Turkey/Iraq and the U.S. would be beneficient. This is important to keep in mind, thus I shall. As for the situation of the Kurds, I also heard a bit about that. The Kurds are certainly an extremely oppressed people, and the majority of their population (used to) conduct trade across the southeast Turkey and northwest Iraqi borders-a process that has stopped due to border restrictions in that place, possibly by U.S. sanctions that caused Turkey to enact similar ones-or possibly Turkey's own decision after evaluating what similar nations were doing and deciding(not quite sure, perhaps ZL knows?). I was not aware in specifics about the events of the 1910s that the Young Turks were involved in-I knew such processes had occured, but... Well around 1915, wasn't Turkey in political strife in any case? So can you really say it was the CURRENT government structure that enacted the forced march? While I'm not looking to place blame, I'd hate to bear responsibility upon modern-day Turkey for the atrocities that, in all possibilities, the last Ottomans or some extreme political factions may have commited. Of course, I'm certain at the same time that the Turks are aware of said atrocities, and they would seek to avoid such things in the future-hard to say when indeed the Kurds are a "valid" political/racist target in SE Turkey, but I am certainly hoping that the Turkish people can continue the respected role they have been displaying to many nation of the world, not to mention myself. Yeah. It's a problem, but a good one to go into detail on-thanks for bringing it up, ZL. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:31 pm

Have you been reading the comic strip "Doonsberry"? It's talking about Bush buying up support. That all these supposed allies, are just bought for billions of US dollars. And that some countries are even asking for more after they get their first payment, usually in lump sum. Why, because of what Bush said about being an education president and what's been happening in a certain northwestern state where school was underbudgeted and had to cut back the school year by a whole bunch. So, what will Bush do about Turkey? Probably continue to try to buy them at what ever cost to our own country. <img src="http://members.truepath.com/tsukikage/MeSS.JPG" style="border:0;"/><div style="text-align:center">"Hashiriya are lonely drivers so, we do not need girlfriends."</div>

**Posted:** Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:16 pm

Nations use economic incentives to lure other nations onto their side? Really? My goodness...that's outrageous! Seriously though Chevy, I do agree that this is wrong as we define it (heck it's just wrong). However, in the diplomatic stage, this has been going on...forever. That's what politics and diplomacy are. Tit-for-tat, I'll give you something if you give me something. Many nations actually with-hold their support for anything until they see what it will do to improve their own situations. We can look at it (the Turkey situation) and call it outrageous, but if an order for war is given, a 2 front position would be a tremendous advantage to us, and I'd exchange money for a shortened war with as few casualties as possible any day. Plus Turkey is starved for cash. Yes they turned down the money, but sometimes even distasteful things must be done for long-term security. Where is Turkey going to get money to stabilize their economy now? Only time will tell if their vote was a mistake or not. Also, Bush giving money for support is not an unusual action for a President. For example, Bill Clinton pledged and gave millions in aid to North Korea (food and material) in exchange for them stopping their nuclear weapons buildup (though of course, he got hood-winked since North Korea just took the aid and covertly went right on developing). Also, state goverments have been just as irresponsible for their own actions. In time of surplus, did any of these goverments look to their budgets and try to save for a rainy day? Spend responsibly? No. They just spent and spent and spent. And when the internet bubble crashed, what were they left with? It's very easy to blame one person, when the cause of the blame should fall on multiple shoulders. ZL <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/R3K.gif"/> <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/ZLstrat.gif"/>   Empires wax and wane; states cleave asunder and coalesce. "Swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as the fire, steady as the mountain." A banner used by the Takeda clan of Kai (Sengoku Jidai era).

**Posted:** Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:41 am

Did ya see The Daily Show today? I think John Stewart said it best saying how scary is it that he, John Stewart, a cable show host and comidian is making sense and the crazy cowboy guy George W. Bush the President of the United States doesn't? <img src="http://members.truepath.com/tsukikage/MeSS.JPG" style="border:0;"/><div style="text-align:center">"Hashiriya are lonely drivers so, we do not need girlfriends."</div>

**Posted:** Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:09 am

Wait...you would expect a crazy cowboy from Texas to make more sense then Jon Stewart-even if he IS a comedian? After all, most comedians make their livings on saying what MAKES SENSE-or at least what we would hope would make sense. ... K. Well I could claim I make more sense then the President of the United States; in fact a lot of people could, and they'd probably be right-but this is nothing ground-breaking^_^;;; _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:12 am

Aw man, you killed my happy buzz. I guess you had to be there to watch it when it came out. <img src="http://members.truepath.com/tsukikage/MeSS.JPG" style="border:0;"/><div style="text-align:center">"Hashiriya are lonely drivers so, we do not need girlfriends."</div>

**Posted:** Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:34 am

Screw you and your "happy buzz"!... ... Yeah, hopefully I can see that episode soon. _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:42 pm

Leno? Man that was a while back. Have to catch it on a re-run day, like when Leno has the day off. As for The Daily Show, it was just this week. Like Monday night, I believe. <img src="http://members.truepath.com/tsukikage/MeSS.JPG" style="border:0;"/><div style="text-align:center">"Hashiriya are lonely drivers so, we do not need girlfriends."</div>

**Posted:** Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:09 pm

I was referring to the Daily Show...I don't watch leno...I usually don't watch them cuz I go to bed at like 10:30ish each weeknight^_^;;; Wait..where'd the topic go? _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:35 am

Out the window, sorry AC. <img src="http://members.truepath.com/tsukikage/MeSS.JPG" style="border:0;"/><div style="text-align:center">"Hashiriya are lonely drivers so, we do not need girlfriends."</div>

**Posted:** Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:23 am

Oh, well in that case... I shall take the liberty now to say: I am off to San Antonio, Texas. So I'll see you all in a week^_^ This should be an experience... JA! _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:09 pm

Back. And, now that everyone knows what is going on- See the Turkish troops moving into Northern iraq? I already have some opinions, but does anyone else want to voice some? _____________ "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain

**Posted:** Sun Mar 23, 2003 4:20 pm

We need to get American forces between the Kurds and Turks as quickly as possible. The consequences could be severe otherwise. The Turks could use this as a pretext to slaughter the Kurds, and we need to prevent that. ZL <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/R3K.gif"/> <img src="http://www.buncha-network.com/zl/ZLstrat.gif"/>   Empires wax and wane; states cleave asunder and coalesce. "Swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as the fire, steady as the mountain." A banner used by the Takeda clan of Kai (Sengoku Jidai era).

Turkey-It's not Just for Thanksgiving anymore.

Who is online